75ZT Community

[geesmith]

Approx 60 miles into my journey the motor died, after a couple of seconds coasting in gear (auto) i realised it was definitely not kidding and put it into neutral. After sitting a couple of minutes I decided to try starting it..and it started normally so I set off again. 20 miles or so later it died again. . started again, not so quick as usual, 5 miles max before it died again. I managed to get moving again, felt like there was a slight misfire, managed to get nearly to the end of a slip road before it died again. After that it would churn for ages, start poorly then die. Did this twice. Having added a can of diesel I tried starting it. Nothing at all..

Any suggestions?

Leakback test?

Under bonnet pump?

Dirty sensors?

The two rear pumps were examined and were in good order. (now there's a double dose of optimism - clue) (EDIT)

Just to complete the picture, I recenly fitted a Syn2. MAF had tested okay on Russ's T4 so didn't bother to connect the MAF section and had it switched off
After the second "death" I switched the TU off as well
Any help appreciated

[James.uk]

It does sound horribly like you have an injector gone kaputt..

Leak back test is first port of call.. Then please report back..

Pumps being faulty would have given you a much longer warning, weeks even months maybe before the car actually stopped..
...

[geesmith]

Thanks James. sworks has suggested the same. Fortunately Russ's post in this forum has sufficient clues. Spent too much time travelling from South Yorks to Blackpool in a suit to get to grips with it yet. I may just get all four injectors done and balanced...at least I'll save a fortune on injector cleaner.

And now a silly question..... why not new injectors? ....and how much leverage to get them out?

[James.uk]

If you pour a liberal amount of vinegar on them in the evening, next day they should come out without too much trouble..

It might pay you to ring Jules and arrange for him to supply and fit either recons, or a new set, that way you could spend the day lying on the beach while he does all the work.
...

[geesmith]

If you pour a liberal amount of vinegar on them in the evening, next day they should come out without too much trouble..

It might pay you to ring Jules and arrange for him to supply and fit either recons, or a new set, that way you could spend the day lying on the beach while he does all the work.
...

You mean Jules sends himself along with the plugs? Brilliant! .... now I've got to drive to a beach after driving to Blackpool three days this week. Will he still do it (send himself along with the plugs) if I don't lay on a beach?

If it means getting the car to Jules well I'll have you know young feller that I'm still smarting from the relay home bill... another five quid and I would have considered buying a cheap motor and towing myself home.... I've not thought that through properly have I..

p.s. Where can I get the liberal brand of vinegar at this time of night?*


* me pretending to take this on the chin.

[Russ]

Turning the tuning section off will help because it makes injector problems worse.

Sorry to hear you're having problems hope you get it sorted without too much pain.

Russ

[DeuxGazoles]

I've just had the same problem as you & found a nifty little way to test the injectors................remove the engine cover & with an assistant (preferably he does the underbonnet bit) take a pair or pointy nose pliers & nip the leak-off pipe between injectors 3 & 4 try & start the car & if it fires up instantly it's injector 4 if not move on to 2 & 3 then 1 & 2 then the return from 1 back to the tank until it starts, be very quick in letting go of the pipe as soon as it fires or you WILL get a shower It'll cost you about £140 for a recon injector & providing it's not stuck in the head it's only about a 45 min job to change it

[geesmith]

Turning the tuning section off will help because it makes injector problems worse.

Sorry to hear you're having problems hope you get it sorted without too much pain.

Russ

I can see the sense in that Russ, therefore after it died the second time I went under and switched off but obviously too late.... I bet I'm going to be really lucky and when I get the cover off and one of the..... nope, I'm not going to be lucky am I.

I was quite excited when I read Roverron saying they were £75 each...then I saw the date of the article.

I've just had the same problem as you & found a nifty little way to test the injectors................remove the engine cover & with an assistant (preferably he does the underbonnet bit) take a pair or pointy nose pliers & nip the leak-off pipe between injectors 3 & 4 try & start the car & if it fires up instantly it's injector 4 if not move on to 2 & 3 then 1 & 2 then the return from 1 back to the tank until it starts, be very quick in letting go of the pipe as soon as it fires or you WILL get a shower It'll cost you about £140 for a recon injector & providing it's not stuck in the head it's only about a 45 min job to change it

Yep, took notes as I read your thread on this. I'm tempted to get all four done as I really prefer the response with the syn2 switched on. I'll consider replacing the under bonnet pump as well as it will offset another tow home. Fortunately my wife lets me use her Mazda and from experience she won't moan for another 7 weeks.

[geesmith]

Well, today I went under the old bonnet. Covers off, everything looked good.

Turned the key to position 2 and could hear the under bonnet pump (hereafter known as the UBP)...sounded like it was slurping a little. Removed the rear squab, drivers side pump faintly whirring, passenger side pump a little noisier.... could be that I was hearing this one when I listened for the drivers side one???

So....tried position 2 again and the UBP was a little louder and smoother then stopped....perhaps the normal time limit if the car isn't started?
So...tried again, UBP quite smooth.

Removed Synergy plugs and reconnected the OEM plug. Tried position 3 and the engine started!
Let it run for a while and switched off. Started again as normal. A little erratic perhaps...moved the revs up to 2k no problem, lifted off abruptly, no problem. Reconnected the Syn2 and switched it on...the car started normally.

When the car died on the motorway I was down to 1/4 tank. After being towed to Bolton services I bought a can of diesel and put it in but three quite lengthy attempts to start it did nothing.
After being carried home I tried to start it again a couple of times thinking the fuel may take a while to come through....about 10 seconds each time. Nothing.

Today I also tried progressing along the injector return hose with a clamp which produced no diesel. (Should I still try the more accurate method of running each return to a separate container?)(or wear goggles and protective clothing!!!)(EDIT)
Anyways...as I clamped the return hose between 3 and 4 the tickover smoothed out. I think I remember injectors 1 and 3 reading 1.2 and 1.4 respectively on your T4 Russ?
I was able to re-park the car neater and with the front facing the house as I usually have it.. still daren't drive off the street though.

It may be that the injectors will benefit from cleaning for the time being.

[color=#804000]I suspect that the drivers side fuel tank pump has failed[/color] so I'll check it more thoroughly tomorrow. it certainly looked intact and serviceable when the RAC guy took it out. Maybe I'll put more fuel in then top it up at the garage....and go to work in it on Monday. At worst I'll get some of my own back on the RAC and a morning off.

I've frequently run the car until the fuel light before filling up without a problem. Still, can't rule out the possibility that the pump died on Wednesday. (hhhmmm, I'm glad to see that thought was still with me)(EDIT)

[JohnDotCom]

There is only the one pump in fuel tank (just in case you thought otherwise)
The under-bonnet one could well be doing the work of a failed in tank pump and when it gets to a quarter full cannot function properly.
Keep the tank filled more than half full and give it another go.
If all runs OK then your in-tank pump required replacement.
The under-bonnet one won't be in very good condition either if its been doing all the work.

[geesmith]

John's comment above is quite correct and he has had many more years experience of these cars than me but I still leapt in with both feet and said.....



Mine's an 03 John and I have been personally introduced to both tank pumps in their nakedness.
A panel under either side of the squab with a pump under each.(pointed out by Russ in a post below where I was going wrong with my assumptions) This was later reduced to a single pump. I'm not sure if the UBP pump was discarded later as well... I read up so much stuff last night that it's started merging into one..(and didn't learn much while reading)
I do wish there was only one in tank pump to think about but I'm afraid I have the other design

I just started the car again after putting all the covers back on and it sounds rough. There is definitely a noticeable vibration. As you suggest, the pump sounds fairly iffy too. The car will rev though without an issue.

?Hmmm... I have this shopping list in mind that includes a tank pump, a UBpump and four recon injectors... so approx the price of a car with real walnut. Of course, now I've stained the wheel back to life I'm committed to this one.

[DeuxGazoles]

Today I also tried progressing along the injector return hose with a clamp which produced no diesel. (Should I still try the more accurate method of running each return to a separate container?)
Anyways...as I clamped the return hose between 3 and 4 the tickover smoothed out. I think I remember injectors 1 and 3 reading 1.2 and 1.4 respectively on your T4 Russ?
I was able to re-park the car neater and with the front facing the house as I usually have it.. still daren't drive off the street though.

I think you may have misunderstood my instructions you only nip the pipes when it wont start to see if it fires up you dont do it with the engine running, though the fact that you don't mention getting showered in diesel would suggest that leakback is VERY minimal as there's asomething like 2000 BAR of pressure in the fuel rail so if you have leakback it would blow the return pipes off when you nip them

[Russ]

The assembly in the passenger side of the fuel tank is a combined filter and fuel level sender unit there's no pump

If the car's running and fancy a run out I can do a proper leakback test for you, it may just save you the cost of 4 recon injectors.

Russ

[geesmith]

Today I also tried progressing along the injector return hose with a clamp which produced no diesel. (Should I still try the more accurate method of running each return to a separate container?)
Anyways...as I clamped the return hose between 3 and 4 the tickover smoothed out. I think I remember injectors 1 and 3 reading 1.2 and 1.4 respectively on your T4 Russ?
I was able to re-park the car neater and with the front facing the house as I usually have it.. still daren't drive off the street though.

I think you may have misunderstood my instructions you only nip the pipes when it wont start to see if it fires up you dont do it with the engine running, though the fact that you don't mention getting showered in diesel would suggest that leakback is VERY minimal as there's asomething like 2000 BAR of pressure in the fuel rail so if you have leakback it would blow the return pipes off when you nip them

doh! misunderstood and was very lucky.... back when I knew everything i also had an over active imagination. I've probably reached that age where a younger person is needed to translate common sense into terms I can understand. I am very ashamed.

The assembly in the passenger side of the fuel tank is a combined filter and fuel level sender unit there's no pump

If the car's running and fancy a run out I can do a proper leakback test for you, it may just save you the cost of 4 recon injectors.

Russ

Thanks for the explanation Russ and my apologies to JDC... "back when i knew everything" etc . Funnily the RAC guy described it as "both pumps are okay so must be the underbonnet one". It's also confusing that the clearest loudest pump sound was emanating from the passenger side when i checked it today (just been clicking my fingers to rule out one sided deafness )

The car is running Russ but I'm not convinced it's happy enough to take anywhere particularly as it already died on me and I haven't put anything right yet. I'll put some more fuel in tomorrow morning and add some injector cleaner. If I feel more confident after filling it I would be very grateful for your help. I'll PM you.

[James.uk]

The "both" pumps the RAC man was referring to are the UBP and the intank pump.. That makes two, ipso facto ref to "both".. OK so far? (d'ohh) ..

Jules does travel, but you would cry when you got the bill. heh heh..

So be brave sir, fill your fuel tank, pack some sandwiches and a flask and either go see Russ, or, make an appointment to visit Jules. Russ doesn't have the stock of spares carried by Jules.. Jules doesn't have a T4..

Good luck with it either way..
...

[geesmith]

Thanks for the uplifting suggestions James. The RAC man did say he had checked both rear pumps which just left the UBpump which he couldn't fix at the road side. He then asked me if I carried a supply of vaseline.....

So, important suggestion I found whilst reading more carefully! If you want to check the rear pump it is advisable to unplug the connector on top of the under bonnet pump before switching to ign position 2 so the sound of the front pump doesn't confuse matters.

In my case this highlighted that my rear pump is US. It also occurred to me that the RAC guy never asked for my keys....and I never switched the ignition on while he was there so I assume he got the pump out to check if it was flowering or fallen apart or something. It would have been cheaper and quicker to cut straight to the tow home.

The UB pump does sound fairly smooth today but having another car to use means I can hang fire until I replace the tank pump before pursuing the injector condition with Russ....or risking the front pump becoming useless too.

Could this be stickied as a how not to?

I fully intend using the later tank pump and deleting the UBP.....then when that tank pump eventually goes west I......doh! Maybe I'll stick with the original arrangement and make a note to unplug the UBP and listen for the tank pump once a month.

Thanks for everyones help.

[James.uk]

Ellow Geee..

When I called at Jules to enquire about fuel pumps, he checked, and both mine were working OK. But as they were the originals i decided to swap the UB one anyway. So I arranged to come back to have that done on the following Tuesday (this discussion took place on a Friday) ..

The pump was duly replaced on the Tuesday but, having replaced it, we then found that the in-tank pump was no longer working!!! So as jules had one in stock he replaced that one as well. Point is, the pumps can fail at any time..

It is sounding more and more like a pump problem.. Hopefully your injectors are fine.
...

[geesmith]

Ellow matey...

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that I started the diagnosis off in the wrong direction by saying the tank pump was working. If I hadn't assumed that was the case and had done things in a logical manner this thread would be half as long and I would look more cleverer...oh well, at least I still haven't revealed the full extent of my potential daftness.

If only my first post had said " CDT cut out on the M61 with a 1/4 tank of fuel and a dead in-tank pump"

The car has a very comprehensive service history James...nowhere is there a receipt for either pump being replaced so I'll presume that the best thing to do is replace both now. The car is worth it.....even if a set of balanced injectors becomes required in the next period of wife looking elsewhere.




QUOTE:
Postby James.uk » 24th Jun 2010 8:37pm
It does sound horribly like you have an injector gone kaputt..

Leak back test is first port of call.. Then please report back..

Pumps being faulty would have given you a much longer warning, weeks even months maybe before the car actually stopped..
... : UNQUOTE

Unusually the pumps have given no indication and I have run the car to the fuel light on a few occasions. JohnDotComdid highlight the possibility that urban driving may well cause enough agitation of the fuel in the tank to ensure plenty reaches the outlet to the under bonnet pump allowing most of the fuel to be used.... assuming the in-tank pump is dead, but.....on a motorway journey the straight ahead nature of the route allows the pump to run dry while the fuel guage indicates a 1/4 tank...stored on the wrong side of the central partition and not getting sploshed about. Hence so many cars suffering the 1/4 tank engine cut on a motorway run.


Let me be a lesson to you all.

(we've actually mocked this thread up to illustrate what can happen if you post without searching and researching. No non existent pumps, clamp operators or RAC personnel were injured in the making of this thread......amazingly. I do occasionally imagine staring at a 200mph jet of escaping diesel)

Best Regards
Dangerous Brian

[James.uk]

Ellow again Dangerous ---

In spite of your best efforts this thread wasn't a complete waste of time.

Colin did manage to add a touch of levity to things by encouraging you to play with the injectors whilst starting the engine, but sadly you misunderstood even that and escaped totally unharmed. Still, with your mechanical skills he will doubtless get many more opportunities in future, so it's not all bad news.

I look foreword to your next adventure with a feeling of deep foreboding and utter despair..
...

[geesmith]

Next week I will be dismantling the clutch on my 75's Jatco gearbox.......

....in gear, engine running....
....blindfold...

Same time, same thread.






Now i can never tell you what i do for a living.
A little knowledge..is a Dangerous thing.....